Podcast episode
From GRPs to Outcomes: The New Playbook for Convergent TV with Tatari
ai-in-adtech ctv dsp measurement programmatic
TL;DR
Tatari's Mike Fogarty (Head of Brand & Agency Partnerships) walks Ari Paparo through how TV buying is shifting from reach/frequency (GRPs) toward incrementality and outcome measurement, and why "convergent TV" — planning, buying and measuring across linear and streaming as one system — is becoming the operating standard. The practical meat is Tatari's "Upstream" tool for automating direct insertion-order buys, a sharp insistence that "programmatic-enabled" CTV is not the same as biddable, and an AI media-planning engine that builds 200-line-item plans in ~30 seconds. Useful listen for CTV buyers and ad-tech operators thinking about automation of direct deals; skippable if you want hard numbers or named M&A.
What was covered
- Outcome-based TV measurement: Brands — especially VC-funded, performance-driven advertisers — are moving past Nielsen GRPs (Gross Rating Points, the legacy reach×frequency currency) toward incrementality and iROAS (incremental return on ad spend), trying to prove TV actually drove a sale or store visit.
- Measurement methods: Tatari uses homegrown incrementality methods plus third parties to stay "interoperable" with the brand's source of truth. Fogarty contrasts older geo/PSA holdout tests with newer "ghost bidding holdouts" and "dynamic baselining" — modeling which users would have converted anyway, then measuring lift above that baseline.
- Biddable vs. non-biddable inventory: Fogarty frames a 100% TV circle (~50% linear, ~50% streaming), with only a slice flowing through biddable DSP pipes. Much spend remains direct/insertion-order or PG (programmatic guaranteed) and never becomes truly biddable.
- Tatari "Upstream": A live product that automates direct insertion orders to feel like a digital transaction — a direct tag integration into the ad server. Claimed benefits: faster campaign launch, less human error, and better "media principal pass-through" pricing versus the "bloat" of biddable pipes.
- The "90% programmatic" myth: Fogarty pushes back on the industry claim that 90% of CTV is "programmatic-enabled," arguing PG deals start as direct transactions and shouldn't count as truly biddable.
- Sports/tentpoles stay direct: Olympics, overtime games, extra innings can be bought off-the-shelf programmatically, but major tentpoles are secured directly, often with custom creative and matching.
- Creative formats: Pause ads (static ads shown when you pause) are "the hottest thing"; Fogarty references his Roku tenure and shoppable/"smash the remote" checkout units, and is skeptical QR codes perform as hoped.
- AI in creative and planning: Tatari does no in-house creative but connects brands (often social-first/creator-economy) to AI-creative partners. The bigger bet is the AI/ML media-planning engine, trained on ~10 years and "billions" of spend data, producing 200-line-item convergent plans in ~30 seconds as a "clear box" the human can override; some AI intelligence is also layered onto buying/Upstream.
Notable claims & predictions
- "Is it biddable if it's PG? I would argue no... Enabled and biddable are very different phrases." — Mike Fogarty, challenging the widely cited stat that 90% of CTV is programmatic-enabled.
- "Being able to build a clear box plan with 200-plus line items in a matter of 30 seconds" predicated on both efficiency (clearance/rates) and outcomes (feed it your CAC or iROAS target). — Fogarty, on Tatari's planning engine.
- "We've been screaming for the decay of linear for the last five to ten years, but... through 2030 you might still have 40 million households with some type of virtual or paid TV subscription." — Fogarty, on linear's persistence.
- Convergent TV "is becoming the standard... I think of it more as a continuous system because it has to be fungible between the way you buy in the glass." — Fogarty, arguing the linear/streaming distinction is already collapsing (World Series on Hulu, Sunday Ticket).
- On direct automation: Upstream gives "a very good media principal pass-through versus any potential bloat that could come from buying through biddable pipes." — Fogarty, a pointed cost argument against the programmatic supply chain.
- "I don't think QR codes are performing where people think they may be... but pause ads, they're not intrusive, they're static, so they're constantly in 100% view." — Fogarty on creative formats.
Why this matters for ad-tech operators
- The biddable-vs-enabled distinction is a real commercial wedge. Tatari is explicitly marketing direct-IO automation (Upstream) as cheaper than biddable/DSP pipes by avoiding "bloat" and preserving "media principal pass-through." For SSPs, DS
Full analysis
Decision Council — Briefing Mode
Step 1 — Frame
The implication: A CTV buying platform is making two pointed arguments that, if they catch on, reshape how money moves through television advertising. First: most "programmatic" CTV isn't actually biddable — it's direct deals wearing a programmatic costume — and automating those direct deals (rather than routing them through bidding pipes) is cheaper. Second: the currency of TV is shifting from reach-and-frequency (GRPs) to "did this ad actually cause a sale" (incrementality and iROAS), and AI can now build the media plan in 30 seconds.
In plain terms for a non-specialist: someone is arguing that a chunk of the ad-tech middle layer is charging tolls on a road that doesn't need them — and that machines can now do the route-planning.
- Reversibility: This is a briefing, not a decision you own. But the industry trend it describes is closer to Type 1 (hard to reverse) — once buyers learn to value incrementality over reach, they don't go back.
- What's actually being weighed: Whether the "automate direct deals" model is a real threat to the biddable supply chain (DSPs/SSPs and their take rates), or a niche tool for a specific buyer type (performance-driven, VC-funded brands).
- Forcing function: None acute. This is a slow grind, not an event. The product exists and is live, but adoption is gradual.
Note: this is one vendor's sales narrative delivered on a friendly podcast. Read the personas with that discount applied.
Step 2 — The Council
The Skeptic The load-bearing assumption here is that "biddable = bloated, direct = lean." That's convenient for a company selling direct-deal automation. But the bidding layer didn't grow because everyone's dumb — it grew because liquidity, real-time optimization, and frequency control across thousands of publishers are genuinely hard to do by hand. Automating insertion orders solves transaction friction, not decisioning friction. And the "90% programmatic is a myth" point is partly semantic gamesmanship: PG deals run through programmatic infrastructure even if they start as a handshake. Fogarty is right that "enabled ≠ biddable" — but he's redrawing the line where it flatters his product.
In plain terms: a toll-road operator's rival is telling you tolls are a scam.
The Operator Tuesday-morning reality: a buyer with 200 line items across linear and streaming, generated by AI in 30 seconds, still has to traffic it, reconcile billing, chase make-goods, and explain to a client why the "clear box" plan put 12% into a network they've never heard of. Direct-IO automation is genuinely useful here — IO buying today is email, spreadsheets, and human error. That's real pain relieved. But incrementality measurement breaks at 90 days when the brand's "source of truth" disagrees with Tatari's model, and someone has to litigate whose lift number is right. The interoperability promise ("we match your source of truth") is the tell that this fight happens on every account.
In plain terms: the automation helps the grunt work; the measurement creates new arguments.
The CFO Follow the take rate. The entire pitch is "media principal pass-through versus biddable pipe bloat" — i.e., less money leaks to intermediaries. If that's true at scale, it's a margin story for advertisers and a revenue threat for the middle: DSPs, SSPs, and the resold-inventory game. But "media principal" itself is loaded — it can mean the platform buys inventory and resells it at an undisclosed markup, which is its own form of opacity. So the question isn't "biddable vs. direct," it's "which opaque markup do you prefer?" For a publisher CFO, automating direct sell-side IOs is attractive — you keep the direct relationship and get digital-speed transactions. That's the quietly bigger story than the DSP threat.
The Market Analyst Who wins, who loses if this trend compounds:
- Losers (at the margin): pure-play DSPs/SSPs whose value prop is "we make CTV biddable." If a meaningful share of premium CTV stays direct and just gets automated, the bidding layer's addressable market shrinks. The Trade Desk, Magnite, PubMatic all have CTV growth baked into their stories.
- Winners: measurement and incrementality vendors (VideoAmp, iSpot, the lift-test specialists) — the shift from GRPs to outcomes is pure tailwind for them. Also publishers who want to defend direct relationships.
- Neutral-to-watch: Nielsen, whose GRP currency is exactly what's being dismissed. Every "move past GRPs" conversation is erosion of the legacy currency moat.
In plain terms: the bidding-pipe companies have the most to lose from this story being true; the measurement companies have the most to gain.
The Long-Term Thinker Three years out: the linear/streaming distinction does collapse — that part is correct and already happening (World Series on Hulu, Sunday Ticket on YouTube). The durable question is who owns the planning layer. Whoever's AI builds the 200-line-item plan controls allocation, and allocation is power. If that engine lives at a buying platform like Tatari, it disintermediates the agency's planning function and the DSP's optimization function simultaneously. That's the real long game here — not the IO automation, which is a feature. The 40-million-linear-households point is a hedge: don't bet the company on linear dying fast, because it won't.
Step 3 — The Tensions
-
Skeptic vs. CFO on "bloat": Is the biddable supply chain genuinely wasteful overhead, or is it paying for liquidity and optimization that hand-automated direct deals can't replicate? Both can't be fully right. The honest answer is it depends on inventory type — biddable earns its keep on long-tail, fragmented supply; it's harder to justify on premium tentpoles you'd buy direct anyway.
-
Operator vs. Market Analyst on measurement: The analyst sees incrementality as a clean tailwind for measurement vendors. The operator sees it as a swamp of competing lift numbers that nobody can reconcile. The trend is real and operationally messy — adoption will be slower than the narrative suggests.
-
Where the planning layer lives: The Long-Term Thinker's quiet point cuts against everyone — if AI planning concentrates at buying platforms, both agencies and DSPs lose a job, regardless of how the biddable-vs-direct debate resolves.
Step 4 — Synthesis
What this actually hinges on: Two separable beliefs, often conflated in the episode.
-
Is premium CTV staying direct? — Probably yes, for tentpoles and high-value inventory. This is real and matters. Automating those direct deals (sell-side and buy-side) is a legitimate, underbuilt opportunity. This is the strongest, least self-serving claim in the episode.
-
Is the biddable supply chain "bloat"? — Overstated. It's a vendor reframing the line to sell against DSPs. Biddable still wins on fragmented, performance-chased, long-tail supply. Treat the cost argument as directional, not gospel.
Which way the council leans: The direction is right and not controversial — TV is converging, GRPs are fading, outcomes are rising, and direct-deal automation is a genuine gap. The magnitude of the threat to the biddable middle is oversold for one company's positioning.
Impact verdict: Moderate, and slow. No single event here. But the cumulative signal matters: every credible voice now treats convergent TV and incrementality as the operating standard, not a thesis. That's the durable takeaway.
What operators should do about it:
- DSPs/SSPs: Stop assuming "CTV is going biddable" is a settled win. Build or buy automated direct/PG workflows, because the premium dollars may never come to the auction. Defend on optimization and liquidity, not on transaction rails.
- Publishers: This is your friend. Automated direct IO lets you keep the relationship and the margin while matching digital speed. Push your sell-side stack here.
- Agencies: The AI planning engine is the threat to watch, not the IO tool. If a buying platform owns allocation, your planning fee is exposed. Own the measurement-arbitration and strategy layer that AI can't.
- Measurement vendors: Tailwind — but the winner is whoever becomes the neutral, interoperable source of truth, because every account will argue over whose lift number counts.
What to verify: Whether "media principal pass-through" means transparent cost savings or just a different undisclosed markup. That single question determines whether the cost argument is real or marketing.
What did we miss? Is there a persona we should add for this specific briefing? A General Counsel lens might earn a seat — "media principal" buying (platform buys and resells inventory) raises the same transparency-and-disclosure questions that dogged agency arbitrage and the ANA programmatic study. If the cost savings come from an undisclosed markup, that's a compliance and trust exposure, not just a pricing story.
Comments