Podcast episode
Damian Garbaccio and Doug Campbell on Affinity's Outcomes Marketing Council
brand-safety identity measurement retail-media walled-gardens
TL;DR
A sponsored-feeling conversation with Affinity Solutions' Damian Garbaccio and DoubleVerify's Doug Campbell about Affinity's new "Outcome Marketing Council" and its report, "Measurement's Tipping Point." The headline stat: 91% of marketers believe platform-reported results are overstated, fueling a push toward independent, purchase-based (credit/debit transaction) measurement and faster, in-flight AI optimization. Light on hard data beyond a couple of survey figures; useful mainly as a signal of marketer distrust of walled-garden self-reporting and DoubleVerify's positioning around outcomes.
What was covered
- Launch of the Affinity Solutions Outcome Marketing Council — described as a collaborative forum of marketing/advertising leaders focused on advancing accountability and media measurement. DoubleVerify's Doug Campbell is a named member. (DoubleVerify is an independent ad-measurement/verification firm; Affinity Solutions provides verified consumer purchase data.)
- New report "Measurement's Tipping Point: The Optimization Blueprint for Brand Growth" — based on a survey weighted ~80% toward brands (rest agencies), focused on what's working and not in measurement and optimization.
- The 91% distrust stat — 91% of marketers believe platform-reported results are overstated "in some way." Campbell stressed this applies to all self-reporting platforms (Meta, YouTube, etc.), not just one or two, and is about trust/bias rather than accusations of dishonesty.
- Why marketers still use proxy metrics — proxies (clicks, impressions, viewability) are fast and convenient, so many "settle" for them despite wanting true sales outcomes. The council argues "the best proxy for a purchase is a purchase," i.e., verified credit/debit/POS (point-of-sale, cash-register) transaction data.
- Barriers to outcome-based optimization — both structural/technical (too many "hops" between transaction data and the optimization system: matching hops, first-party data, clean-room hops) and organizational (inertia, internal will, disruption to legacy reporting). Speed is a recurring obstacle — getting data in and using it for optimization fast enough.
- Media waste — a cited survey figure of ~11% waste, but both guests stressed the real number is "TBD" and no one can pin it down given measurement complexity and data cost.
- AI and "garbage in, garbage out" — both argued AI/model improvements help, but outcomes depend on quality conversion data fed in. The aspiration is AI-driven in-flight optimization (optimizing during the campaign, not just post-campaign analysis).
- Advice to CMOs — use third-party measurement, shorten the path between conversion and optimization, and feed deterministic high-quality data into models.
Notable claims & predictions
- "91% of marketers believe that their platform-reported results are overstated in some way." — Doug Campbell (DoubleVerify), citing the survey. The episode's central data point.
- "The best proxy for a purchase is a purchase." — Damian Garbaccio (Affinity), arguing verified credit/debit/POS data should anchor optimization rather than proxy metrics.
- "A platform will say you sold a hundred widgets and you look at your cash register and you only sold 90… and then someone else said you sold 90 widgets, now you sold 180. That's the real problem." — Ari Paparo, illustrating attribution overlap/double-counting across platforms.
- "The fewer the number of hops… the more direct the connection you can make into your optimization, the better." — Campbell, framing data-path length as a core performance lever; explicitly named clean-room and matching hops as friction.
- AI in-flight optimization claim — Garbaccio: the hope/belief is that high-quality data into AI will help "not just post-campaign outcomes" but "iterative" optimization while a campaign is running, potentially routing around structural delays.
- "By no means is this battle lost… no one's super far behind at all." — Garbaccio, framing outcome measurement as a still-open opportunity rather than a solved/locked-up market.
- CMO-as-CFO claim — Garbaccio: CMOs increasingly interact with and "act like" CFOs with commercial responsibility, driving demand for verified outcomes as part of proving return on ad spend.
Why this matters for ad-tech operators
- Quantified distrust of walled-garden self-reporting is a sales wedge for independent measurement. The 91%-overstated figure — even if it's a vendor-sponsored survey — is the kind of stat that DoubleVerify, IAS, Comscore, VideoAmp, iSpot, and purchase-data players (Affinity, retail media networks) will cite to justify third-party verification budgets. For publishers and platforms, it's a reminder that buy-side confidence in self-attributed conversions remains low and is being actively monetized by competitors.
- The "shorten the data path / reduce hops" thesis is a knock on clean rooms and match-heavy plumbing. Campbell explicitly named first-party data, clean-room,
Full analysis
Decision Council — Briefing Mode
Step 1 — Frame
The story: a vendor-sponsored survey (Affinity Solutions + DoubleVerify's new "Outcome Marketing Council") reports that 91% of marketers believe ad platforms overstate their own results. The proposed cure: anchor optimization in verified purchase data (actual card/register transactions), shorten the data plumbing between a sale and the optimization engine, and use AI to optimize mid-campaign instead of after.
What's actually being decided for the ecosystem: not "is self-reported measurement broken" — everyone already assumes that. The real question is who captures the budget that distrust unlocks. Independent verifiers, purchase-data vendors, retail media networks, and clean-room operators are all reaching for the same dollar.
Reversibility: Type 2 for any single operator — measurement vendor choices are renegotiated annually. The industry-level shift toward outcomes is slower but already underway.
Timeline: No forcing function. This is a marketing artifact (a council, a report) that crystallizes an existing trend, not a triggering event.
Honest impact read: Low-to-moderate as news. The 91% stat is a sponsored survey designed to sell the sponsors' products. But the underlying movement — buy-side demand to tie spend to actual sales — is real and worth thinking through.
Step 2 — The Council
The Market Analyst Strip away the council branding and this is positioning. DoubleVerify's core business — fraud, viewability, brand safety (checking ads were seen by a real human in a safe place) — is maturing and commoditizing. "Outcomes" is the growth narrative DV needs, and joining a purchase-data vendor's council is a cheap way to plant a flag there. In plain terms: DV is telling investors it sells results, not just hygiene. Watch whether IAS and Comscore follow with their own outcome stories. The bigger tell: retail media networks already own purchase data at scale, so the independents are partnering toward a position the Walmarts and Amazons hold by default.
The Skeptic The load-bearing assumption is that the 91% number means anything. A survey commissioned by two firms that sell the alternative to self-reported metrics, weighted 80% toward brands, asking if platforms overstate "in some way" — almost no one says no to that framing. In plain terms: they asked a leading question and got the answer they sell against. And "the best proxy for a purchase is a purchase" quietly skips the hard part: matching an ad exposure to a transaction is itself a probabilistic, bias-laden process. Verified purchase data swaps walled-garden bias for vendor-match bias. It's not ground truth — it's a different vendor's truth.
The Operator This is where the report gets honest about itself. They admit the killer problem is "hops" — the matching step, the first-party data step, the clean-room step between a transaction and the optimization system. In plain terms: by the time the sales data reaches the system deciding where to spend, the campaign's half over. On Tuesday morning, the buyer still optimizes to clicks because the purchase signal arrives in three weeks, batched, partial, and expensive to license. "In-flight AI optimization" on transaction data is a roadmap slide, not a running system. The second-order effect at 90 days: more dashboards, more reconciliation meetings, same media plan.
The Customer / End User (the CMO / media buyer) The CMO-acting-like-a-CFO point is the truest thing in the episode. Marketing budgets are under real scrutiny, and "prove the sale" is a defensible answer to a finance team. But buyers should be wary of trading one black box for another. In plain terms: don't fire the platform's grading of its own homework just to trust a vendor's grading instead. The useful posture is triangulation — platform numbers, an independent measure, and a periodic incrementality test (a holdout group that sees no ads, to see what sales would have happened anyway). No single source wins.
The CFO Purchase data is expensive, and the cost compounds with every hop the speakers themselves flagged. Licensing transaction panels, paying for matching, running clean rooms — that stack can eat the very waste it claims to find. Their own cited waste figure was ~11% and immediately disclaimed as "TBD." In plain terms: they can't tell you how much you're wasting, but the fix isn't cheap. The economics only clear for advertisers with large, frequent, card-trackable purchases (CPG, retail, QSR). For considered or B2B purchases, the panel coverage is thin and the payback is a stretch.
Step 3 — The Tensions
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Is purchase data "truth" or just a better-marketed bias? The Skeptic says matching error replaces platform error. The Customer says use both and add a holdout test. This is the whole debate compressed: there is no clean ground truth, only a portfolio of imperfect lenses.
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Does the speed problem kill the thesis? The Operator says transaction data arrives too slowly and through too many hops to drive real-time decisions — so the "in-flight AI" promise is aspirational. The Market Analyst counters that the narrative sells regardless of whether the plumbing works yet.
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Independents vs. the data owners. The verifiers are partnering their way toward outcomes, but retail media networks and Amazon already sit on the purchase data natively. The independents' edge is neutrality; the data owners' edge is the data. Who wins depends on whether buyers value neutrality enough to pay for an extra hop.
Step 4 — Synthesis
What this hinges on: (1) whether verified purchase data is fast and complete enough to actually drive optimization rather than just post-mortem reporting, and (2) whether buyers will pay a premium for neutral outcome measurement when the data owners (retail media, Amazon) can offer outcomes natively and cheaper.
Which way the council leans: Skeptical on the news, constructive on the trend. The 91% stat is sponsored noise. The structural shift — CMOs accountable for sales, distrust of self-graded platforms — is real and durable, and it's the thing operators should actually plan around.
What it means by stakeholder:
- Independent measurement (DV, IAS, Comscore, VideoAmp, iSpot): "Outcomes" is now the competitive battlefield, not viewability. Expect more purchase-data partnerships and more sponsored stats. The risk is being squeezed between the platforms above and the retail networks below.
- Publishers / CTV sellers: Buy-side confidence in self-attributed conversions is low — your sales story increasingly needs a third-party outcome layer attached. (The saved AdExchanger piece on CTV performance pressure points the same way.)
- Walled gardens (Meta, YouTube): Named directly as the distrusted parties. Continued pressure to open up to neutral verification, which they'll resist.
- Agencies: Opportunity to sell measurement orchestration — but watch margins, since clients increasingly want to see the raw outcome, not the agency's interpretation of it.
- Retail media networks: Quietly the biggest winners. They own the purchase data the independents are scrambling to license.
What to verify before acting:
- Get the actual survey methodology and question wording before quoting 91% to anyone.
- Pressure-test the latency: ask any outcome vendor for the real lag between transaction and usable optimization signal. If it's not days, "in-flight" is marketing.
- Demand the match rate and coverage — what share of conversions actually link to an exposure, and for which verticals.
- Always pair any outcome metric with a periodic holdout test; correlation to sales is not the same as causing them.
A view: Treat this episode as confirmation of a trend, not as evidence. The durable signal is that the industry is migrating from "was the ad seen?" to "did it sell anything?" — and the firms that own clean, fast, well-matched purchase data (with retail media networks structurally advantaged) will capture the budget that distrust frees up. The independents have a real opening, but only if they solve the speed-and-hops problem the report itself admits they haven't.
What did we miss? Is there a persona we should add for this specific decision? A General Counsel lens could be worth adding — verified credit/debit transaction data sits squarely in the path of state privacy laws and consumer-finance data rules, and "shorten the hops" can mean "remove the clean room that was keeping you compliant."